Drawn from 180+ episodes of That's What I Call Marketing with the world's best marketers.
Brand Building
Peter Field — co-author of The Long and Short of It and one of the most cited voices in marketing effectiveness — has been clear on this: brand effects compound over time, typically 18–24 months before meaningful mental availability gains appear. The mistake most marketers make is expecting brand investment to work at the speed of performance marketing. It doesn't, and it shouldn't. Consistency over time is what builds brands — not bursts of activity followed by silence.
Listen to related episodes →Jenni Romaniuk of the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute — whose research into how brands grow is among the most influential in the field — defines distinctive assets as the sensory and verbal cues that reliably trigger brand recognition: logos, colours, characters, sounds, even a tone of voice. The value is in memory. When a buyer encounters your distinctive asset in a buying situation, it shortcuts the decision. Karen Nelson-Field's attention research adds a layer: brands with strong distinctive assets capture more attention in media environments, creating a compounding advantage. The discipline required is ruthless consistency — the same assets, used repeatedly, over years.
Listen to related episodes →Mental availability — the likelihood your brand comes to mind in a buying situation — is central to the Ehrenberg-Bass approach that Jenni Romaniuk has discussed in depth. It's built through reach: getting in front of as many category buyers as possible, as often as possible, with distinctive and emotionally resonant creative. It is not built through depth of relationship with a small number of loyal customers. The brands that grow are those that are easy to think of and easy to buy.
Listen to related episodes →This is genuinely contested territory and has been debated across multiple episodes. Mark Ritson has argued forcefully that most brand purpose is a distraction — a layer of meaning applied from the outside that has nothing to do with why the brand actually exists or what it actually does. His view: sort out your segmentation, your positioning and your product before worrying about purpose. The counterargument — made by guests including Marcus Collins — is that brands which stand for something culturally meaningful create communities of believers who behave differently from ordinary customers. Both views have merit. The honest position is that authentic purpose — rooted in what the brand genuinely does and believes — can be powerful. Manufactured purpose applied for marketing reasons almost never works and often backfires.
Listen to related episodes →Ellie Norman — who built the first marketing function at Formula 1 before moving to Manchester United — has spoken about this tension in detail. Her view: protect the core idea and the distinctive assets ruthlessly at global level, while giving local markets the freedom to find locally resonant expressions of that core. Margaret Molloy of Siegel+Gale, whose entire career has been about simplicity in brand strategy, puts it this way: global brands fail locally when they confuse consistency with uniformity. The idea should be the same everywhere. The expression can flex.
Listen to related episodes →Most brands that think they need a rebrand actually need better and more consistent execution of what they already have. Wael Jabi — Global Head of Marketing for KitKat at Nestlé — has discussed the discipline required to resist reinvention and trust the assets you have. A rebrand is only justified when the existing brand is actively working against you: it's genuinely outdated, it no longer reflects what the business does, or it has become associated with something negative. Changing for novelty destroys the brand equity built over years.
Listen to related episodes →Adam Morgan of eatbigfish — who has spent his career studying challenger brands — argues that budget constraints force creative bravery. You can't outspend the market leader so you have to out-think them. Find the cultural spaces they can't or won't occupy. Be more distinctive, more human, more surprising. Andy Nairn's work on campaigns like Paddy Power's Rainbow Laces and Yorkshire Tea with Sean Bean shows that a genuinely bold creative idea generates cultural conversation worth multiples of the media spend behind it.
Listen to related episodes →Marketing Effectiveness
Binet and Field's research — discussed in depth with Peter Field — suggests roughly 60% brand building, 40% short-term activation for most categories. But Peter Field is careful to say this varies significantly by category and brand size. Smaller brands with low mental availability may need to invest more heavily in brand first. The danger of ignoring this balance is illustrated by Leigh Barnes of Intrepid Travel, who described watching every metric fall off a cliff during COVID after years of investing almost exclusively in performance marketing. When external demand collapsed, there was no brand to fall back on.
Listen to related episodes →Grace Kite — founder of Magic Numbers and one of the leading econometricians working in marketing — argues the key is translating marketing metrics into the language finance already speaks. Her approach: use econometric modelling to show the revenue contribution of marketing investment, and then show what happens to that revenue when the investment is cut. Tom Roach adds a practical framing: stop reporting marketing metrics to the board and start reporting business outcomes. Not reach and impressions — market share, pricing power, cost of acquisition over time.
Listen to related episodes →Marketing mix modelling uses statistical analysis to decompose sales into the contributions of different marketing activities. Grace Kite has spoken extensively about its value — and its limitations. Done well, it gives marketers defensible evidence for budget allocation decisions. Done badly, it gives false precision. The key limitations: it tends to undervalue brand building (because the effects are slow and long-term) and it requires significant data quality and expertise to produce reliable results. For most brands, starting with simpler frameworks — share of voice vs share of market — is more immediately actionable.
Listen to related episodes →Matt Herbert — co-founder of Tracksuit, which has built an always-on affordable brand tracking platform — has argued that brand tracking should be continuous and accessible, not the expensive annual exercise that most big companies use and most small companies can't afford. The metrics that matter: prompted and unprompted awareness, consideration, preference and the distinctive assets associated with your brand. The discipline is tracking these consistently over time so you can see the direction of travel, not just a snapshot.
Listen to related episodes →Yes — with caveats. The relationship between share of voice and share of market is one of the most robust findings in effectiveness research, and Peter Field has referenced it repeatedly. Brands that maintain a share of voice above their share of market tend to grow. Brands below tend to decline. The complication in a fragmented media landscape is defining what counts as share of voice — but as a directional indicator of whether you're investing enough relative to your competitive position, it remains useful.
Listen to related episodes →Karen Nelson-Field and Adam Morgan produced research together — discussed in a recent episode — quantifying the economic cost of low-attention, emotionally flat advertising. Their finding: dull advertising doesn't just fail to build the brand, it actively wastes the media investment behind it. Brands that buy cheap, low-attention environments and fill them with rational, forgettable creative are effectively spending money to achieve nothing. The implication is that creative quality and media quality are inseparable from an effectiveness standpoint.
Listen to related episodes →Peter Field's framework — connecting excess share of voice to profit growth over time — is the most rigorous tool available. Grace Kite's econometric approach adds real data from your own business. But both guests have also spoken about the softer challenge: building relationships with the CFO and CEO over time so that when the evidence is presented, there is already a foundation of trust. Marketing effectiveness is as much a political challenge as an analytical one.
Listen to related episodes →Creativity
The IPA data is unambiguous. James Hurman — whose research into the relationship between creative awards and effectiveness results is among the most cited in the industry — has shown that creatively awarded campaigns significantly outperform non-awarded campaigns on business metrics. The mechanism is emotion: creative work that generates a genuine emotional response is more likely to be remembered and more likely to drive long-term brand effects. Rational messaging works in the short term but decays quickly.
Listen to related episodes →Andy Nairn, Karen Martin of BBH and Nils Leonard of Uncommon Studios have all been asked this and the answer is remarkably consistent. One clear insight. One clear audience. One desired change in behaviour. The brief should inspire, not constrain. The most common failure: briefs that contain multiple objectives, no real insight, and a half-formed solution already baked in. The best briefs give a creative team a problem worth solving. They don't give them a solution to execute.
Listen to related episodes →Nils Leonard has spoken about this in detail. His view: you can't sell brave work in an organisation that doesn't value bravery — which means the real work happens before the creative arrives, in building a culture that wants to be bold. Andy Nairn's practical advice: connect the brave idea clearly and logically to the business problem. Brave doesn't mean random. It means the most powerful solution to a genuine problem, executed without compromise.
Listen to related episodes →Genuinely debated. Mark Ritson has argued that most pre-testing kills good work by filtering for familiarity — consumers rate things they recognise as good, which regresses creative work toward the safe and the average. The System1 approach, discussed by Andrew Tindall in a recent episode, tests emotional response rather than rational approval — which is a more useful signal. The consensus view from effectiveness researchers: test for communication and emotional resonance, not for whether the consumer likes the concept or thinks it would make them buy.
Listen to related episodes →Significant — and consistently underused. Andrew Tindall of System1 has pointed to data showing humorous advertising outperforms serious advertising across most categories. It's harder to do well and requires an organisation comfortable with risk, which is why it's rare. The brands that do it consistently — and multiple guests including Andy Nairn have referenced Paddy Power and Yorkshire Tea — build enormous fame at relatively low cost by generating cultural conversation that amplifies the paid media many times over.
Listen to related episodes →In his episode with Conor, Sir John Hegarty — co-founder of BBH and one of the most decorated creative minds in advertising history — argued that the industry has allowed technology to seduce it away from the fundamentals. His view: great advertising has always been about a powerful idea, expressed with craft. The tools change. The principle doesn't. He was particularly direct on the obsession with data and targeting: knowing everything about your audience is worthless if you have nothing interesting to say to them.
Listen to related episodes →Attention & Media
Karen Nelson-Field — founder of Amplified Intelligence and author of The Attention Economy — has produced the most rigorous research into how much attention advertising actually receives across different platforms and formats. Her finding: attention levels vary enormously and most media planning ignores this completely. Active attention — eyes on screen, cognitive processing — is what drives memory encoding and brand effects. Passive attention produces little. The implication is that two campaigns with identical reach can have radically different brand effects depending on the attention quality of the media environment.
Listen to related episodes →Peter Field's recent work argues that TV remains among the most effective brand-building media for brands that can afford it. It delivers reach, emotional impact and long-term brand effects that most digital channels can't replicate at scale. A panel episode on traditional media's resurgence also featured perspectives from radio and cinema — both of which, according to the evidence presented, are significantly undervalued in most media plans. The argument is not that digital doesn't work but that the industry's shift away from broadcast has gone too far.
Listen to related episodes →Karen Nelson-Field's research doesn't distinguish between B2C and B2B buyers — humans process advertising the same way regardless of what they're buying. Jon Lombardo has made this point in the context of B2B brand building: the assumption that B2B buyers make purely rational decisions is wrong. They are as susceptible to attention, emotion and memory as any consumer. The implication for B2B marketers is to stop hiding behind rational product messaging and start building genuine mental availability through emotionally resonant creative.
Listen to related episodes →B2B Marketing
Jon Lombardo and Peter Weinberg — who built their reputation at the LinkedIn B2B Institute before founding Evidenza — have been the most consistent voices on this. Their diagnosis: B2B marketing is overwhelmingly focused on demand capture (finding people already in the market) at the expense of demand creation (building mental availability with future buyers). The 95/5 rule they've cited: at any given time, only about 5% of your potential market is actively buying. Brand building reaches the other 95%. Most B2B marketing reaches nobody but the 5%.
Listen to related episodes →Jon Lombardo has drawn directly on Binet and Field's effectiveness data to show that B2B brands that invest in emotional, fame-driving creativity significantly outperform those that don't. The panel discussion on B2B marketing featuring Tara O'Sullivan, Caroline Kelly and Seamus Moore went further: the question isn't whether B2B should be creative, it's why the industry has allowed itself to become so boring. The answer is usually risk aversion, committee decision-making and a fundamental misunderstanding of how B2B buyers actually make decisions.
Listen to related episodes →One of the most contested topics in the B2B episodes. The consensus: marketing and sales misalignment usually comes down to metrics — marketing measured on MQLs and leads, sales measured on revenue. The fix, discussed in the panel episode, is shared metrics focused on pipeline quality and revenue, not volume of leads. Jon Lombardo's view: marketing's job is not to hand sales a list of names who downloaded a whitepaper — it's to make the brand so well-known and well-regarded that sales conversations start from a different place.
Listen to related episodes →Jon Lombardo's standard is uncompromising: thought leadership only works if it makes buyers genuinely smarter. Content that exists to make the brand look good without delivering real value is not thought leadership — it's marketing dressed up as editorial. The test: would a senior professional share this with a peer because they found it genuinely useful? If not, it isn't thought leadership.
Listen to related episodes →Sponsorship
Daragh Persse of The Brand Fans — who ran global sponsorships at Vodafone before founding an independent sponsorship intelligence agency — recommends three filters: does the property reach your target audience at scale, does the association reinforce the brand values you want to build, and can you activate it in a way that creates genuine brand meaning rather than just logo placement? Rights fees are only part of the investment — activation is where sponsorships live or die, and brands consistently underinvest in it.
Listen to related episodes →For brands targeting senior professionals, podcast sponsorship offers something unusual — an engaged audience that has actively chosen to listen, with completion rates significantly higher than almost any other advertising format. The intimacy of the medium creates a level of trust between host and audience that transfers to sponsors in a way that display advertising rarely achieves. Daragh Persse has noted that podcast advertising also has the advantage of being contextually relevant — listeners in a marketing podcast are, by definition, interested in marketing.
Listen to related episodes →Marketing Leadership & Career
Thomas Barta — co-author of The 12 Powers of a Marketing Leader, whose research covers thousands of marketers globally — has identified commercial courage as the single most differentiating trait of effective CMOs: the ability to make bold marketing decisions and defend them in the boardroom with evidence and conviction. His research shows that CMOs who win influence internally do so not by being the loudest voice for creativity but by being the most commercially credible voice in the room.
Listen to related episodes →Multiple guests have addressed this directly. Thomas Barta's framework is the most rigorous: speak the language of business, not marketing. Connect everything to revenue, profit and market share. Paul Dervan — who built his reputation as National Lottery CMO and was named Ireland's Marketer of the Year — has written about this in Run With Foxes: marketers who are taken seriously in the boardroom are those who demonstrate genuine understanding of how the business makes money, not just how marketing campaigns perform.
Listen to related episodes →Gráinne Wafer — who rose from PR and sponsorship to leading iconic global brands including Guinness, Baileys and Smirnoff at Diageo — spoke about the importance of truly understanding brand fundamentals before attempting transformation. Her work on the Baileys turnaround is particularly instructive: a brand that had been declining was given a clear, bold repositioning and the consistency of execution to make it stick. Her view: most brand problems are execution problems, not strategy problems. The strategy is usually right. The discipline to execute it without flinching is what's missing.
Listen to related episodes →Sherilyn Shackell — founder and CEO of The Marketing Academy, which has developed hundreds of senior marketing leaders globally — has argued that marketing leaders are consistently left out of the boardroom in ways that cost businesses real money. Her mission is to develop CMOs who are so commercially literate, so strategically confident and so effective as leaders that their exclusion from senior decision-making becomes impossible to justify.
Listen to related episodes →Culture, Behaviour & Consumer Insight
Marcus Collins — clinical assistant professor at Michigan Ross School of Business and former head of strategy for Beyoncé's digital business — has argued that the most powerful brands don't just reach audiences, they belong to communities. His book For The Culture examines how identity and cultural belonging drive human behaviour more reliably than any rational argument. His view for marketers: if you understand the culture your audience belongs to — the shared beliefs, rituals and identity markers — you can create work that resonates at a level that goes far beyond product messaging.
Listen to related episodes →Richard Shotton — author of The Choice Factory and one of the most practical voices on applying behavioural science to marketing — has discussed how the findings of decades of psychological research can be used to make marketing more effective. His approach: take robust findings from academic research and test them in real marketing contexts. The Avis "We Try Harder" case study he discusses is a classic example — admitting a weakness (being number two) actually made the brand more appealing, because it triggered the psychological principle of honesty and underdog sympathy.
Listen to related episodes →Kay McCarthy — founder of MCCP and one of Ireland's most experienced brand strategists — worked on the Guinness positioning strategy at Diageo, helping pivot the brand from being perceived as an old man's drink to a brand relevant across generations. Her lesson: the insight that drives great brand strategy usually comes from getting close to people who aren't buying the brand yet, not from analysing your existing customers. Understanding why people aren't choosing you — and what would need to change for them to consider it — is where the growth opportunity lives.
Listen to related episodes →Meldrum Duncan — founder of Curious Industry and formerly of What If Innovation — has argued that most marketing insight work stops too early. Brands ask what consumers want and accept the first answer. Genuine insight requires going deeper: understanding not just what people say they want, but the underlying tension, desire or unmet need that your brand could address. His view: the best insights feel surprising when you first encounter them and completely obvious once you've seen them.
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